Laszlo's Price??

[Flu]

A funny question - How much does Laszlo cost? How come you guys don't have ANY mention of the price tag on Laszlo?

You honestly don't think that I'm going to dive into your API and drag my whole company down that road without knowing up front exactly what is the cost of this product.

How come other companies have price tags on their products and you don't? Your site is so well thought and carried that I can't imagine its a mistake. Something is fishy.

And one last question for the road - Macromedia Flex is just outside the door, knocking. I'm in the beta test (a very small beta test group I must say, considering its Macromedia) As you all know, its a 100% duplicate of Laszlo. What do you give your customers that Flex doesn't, or in other words, why won't I wait 2 more months and develop for Macromedia Flash on a Macromedia platform (Flex) using Macromedia tools (Brady)?

[jtang]

Hi Flu,

Expect an answer here to your pricing question from someone at Laszlo shortly. In the meantime, I'd like to address your second question: Why Laszlo over Flex?

Here are just a few of the major advantages of Laszlo, as it compares to Macromedia Flex:

1. Laszlo means ubiquity. Because Laszlo applications require only Flash Player 5 or later, deployers can reach approximately 96% of the global Internet-enabled PC audience. By contrast, Macromedia Flex requires Flash Player 7, which rests at the 30-40% penetration level as of December 2003, according to Macromedia's own statistics (http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/version_penetration.html). For any enterprise seeking to reach as broad an audience as possible, Laszlo presents a clear advantage.

2. Laszlo is a proven, deployed product in its 2.0 release. While Flex is still in Beta with no public deployments, the quality and the features of the Laszlo Presentation Server have already benefited from multiple large-scale public deployments, including EarthLink and Yahoo! applications used daily by millions of users. (See "Customer Spotlight" at http://www.laszlosystems.com/success for more...) High scalability, performance, and reliability have already been established with Laszlo.

3. Laszlo development is not dependent on Flash or ActionScript development skills. Because Laszlo applications are "XML all the way down", organizations that recognize the value of standards-based development can easily leverage their existing technical skills and knowledge. In comparison, our understanding is that Flex applications are merely an XML layer on top of Flash/ActionScript, and that Flex UI components are generally developed in Flash. Fundamentally, Flex is an extension of the Macromedia product line, which primarily appeals to existing Flash developers. Those developers new to this territory, or concerned about maximizing their investments in industry standards, will favor Laszlo, as all of the development is in XML.

4. Laszlo is "future-proofed". It's important to understand that the Laszlo solution today uses the Flash Player only as a rendering engine -- and it was selected as a first target because it represents the most ubiquitous platform in the market today (see #1 above). However, the Laszlo development methodology is intentionally abstracted from Flash (I.e., a developer does not need to know anything about Flash authoring to build an LZX app), and because Laszlo will be supporting run-time environments other than the Flash Player in the future, your LZX applications will have a life and breadth beyond today's Flash Player deployment platform.

While it's highly unlikely that Macromedia will be supporting Flex deployment to other vendor platforms (such as Microsoft's CLR, etc.), Laszlo intends on providing support for as many delivery choices as possible -- meaning your existing LZX code can eventually be deployed on any number of present and future platforms, without the need to re-write applications, migrate code, or re-test functionality.

5. The Laszlo Component model is open and extensible. In addition to offering a rich and flexible set of UI components that developers can use immediately to build breakthrough user experiences, the LPS 2.0 release also provides developers with the source code and reference documentation for the entire component model. Since the implementation of these components is XML all the way down, this offering gives developers a straightforward approach to extend and modify the functionality of Laszlo components, and also provides a clear source for understanding code examples and best practices in order to build their own custom components. Unlike Macromedia, Laszlo imposes no license restrictions preventing developers from modifying components -- Having kept the developer in mind, the Laszlo environment has been designed to get developers up to speed quickly and enable them to leverage as much pre-existing code as possible.

6. Finally, perhaps the area of which we're most proud, is the Laszlo development environment itself. While straightforward to learn and understand, the LZX development methodology offers unprecedented control and capabilities, due to its unique constraints- and event-based programming paradigm. The natural UI behavior and constructs enabled by the rich, object-oriented language -- and the ease by which they're achieved -- continue to surprise designers and developers, sophisticated and beginner alike... as well as us at Laszlo!

Hope this helps you with your decision ;) -- And stay tuned for more on pricing...

Jerry Tang
Director of Engineering, Laszlo Studios

[Flu]

Thanks jtang for the lengthy reply.

Being a Flex beta tester (and im still imposed by the NDA so I really can't say much more than what I'm going to write here), I do have several comments on your comparison.

1. Flex is not just XML and Flash. Flex uses MXML files (which is Macromedia Flex XML format) to later compile them to SWFs that the client will get. If I have to compare it to something, that would be JSP. Just as the Java enabled server compiles the JSP servlets into Java classes and then hosts them, Macromedia compiles the MXML instructions into SWFs. MXML is only used to position elements on the page and to imbue methods and properties into them. The rest is done with ActionScript or through the Flash movie itself, just as Laszlo does (at least from what I saw so far).

2. You put it as if learning ActionScript is a downfall. I don't see it this way. Having to learn the same language that the target compiled application uses (Flash) is not a disadvantage. It will give you better understanding of what you do and why you do it.

I do think that you are on the money with two important points - Laszlo is already retail while Flex isn't, and Laszlo lets its users to change the fundemental source as they see fit (If I understand you correctly, do you actually provide the source code or do we decompile JARs?).

Again, very nice work on the site and the Laszlo application as a whole. I was totally blown away by your extensive API documentation (and the dashboard example, as well as the Behr SmartColor). We don't often see this much of investment in a product, even if its a flagship product. Come to think of it, I'm afraid of the price you guys are going to ask for such a system, seeing you work with Yahoo, Behr and other hotshots companies.

Please post an answer to the price inquiry. I'm starting a new project now and it would be sweet to write it with Laszlo.

P.S. - As I understand it, Flex will be able to export to pre-flash 7 formats, providing that you will not use a later command in your script. This is an unchecked rumor from the beta dev center so don't take this for granted. Flex doesn't support it currently (Not that I can see anywhere on the menus).

[vfunshteyn]

Originally posted by Flu
I do think that you are on the money with two important points - Laszlo is already retail while Flex isn't, and Laszlo lets its users to change the fundemental source as they see fit (If I understand you correctly, do you actually provide the source code or do we decompile JARs?).



There are no JARs that need to be decompiled in order to view the source code of an LZX application. The "view source" feature is standard in LPS and can be turned on or off upon the product's deployment via a setting. We also provide a "pretty printer" of LZX source code which in my opinion is an invaluable tool for exploring an application's source code, as well as for learning the LZX language itself. For an example of the latter, please see http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps/lz-utils/viewer/viewer.jsp?file=/sample-apps/dashboard/dashboard.lzx

[antun]

Laszlo lets its users to change the fundemental source as they see fit (If I understand you correctly, do you actually provide the source code or do we decompile JARs?).

The Laszlo components are 100% pure LZX. That means that if you want to see how a Laszlo combobox or window is made up, you can. You can see what I mean here:

http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps/lz-utils/viewer/viewer.jsp?file=/WEB-INF/lps/components/lz/combobox.lzx

(By the way, that's the "pretty printer" that vfunshteyn talked about in his last post - I'm feeding the source for combobox into it).

As for pricing, the best thing is to talk to Sales (sales@laszlosystems.com).

Take care,

Antun

[Flu]

Why all that fuss about a simple question, why can't you tell us how much it's cost and get it over with?

Sales won't return my emails, I sent like 3 already. You guys are acting as if you're ashamed in how much Laszlo's cost...

And btw, I didn't mean the LZX files, that was obviously "open", MXML are "open" too. I meant the server application that hosts and deals with LZO/LZX files.

[antun]

I'm sorry - I didn't mean for it to sound like a lot of fuss. I'm not personally in a position to talk about pricing, because we're working on a new pricing structure (although I'll help with any technical questions you might have). You will get a response about pricing.

-Antun

[dcornish]

When I called they quoted me a price over 20k. This product was meant only for large companies. I would be interested if the price was for small developers, but they had to make a choice.

[Flu]

Yep, same reply here too - 22,500 USD for 2 CPUs. I don't plan to spend more on the application development than my revenues from that application. This product is definitley not for small-medium companies.

I did receive an email from Laszlo's CTO saying that they will offer their product in 2 more payment plans but I seriously can't see how they drop from 22.5k to something realistic for small companies.

When will people understand that you do more cash from selling 100 items that cost 100 USD than 1 item that cost 10,000 USD, even if the total sum is the same. It's a simple thing - 100 customers will bring 100 times more customers if the product is good (which is definitley the case in Laszlo's product) than that 1 customer.

[david]

Flu and dcornish,

Thanks for pushing on this issue. Sit tight and you wiil soon get what (we think!) you want. We've been listening -- you're not alone -- and are about to announce some new options which take this feedback into account.

We will soon offer another edition of LPS which is specifically designed for smaller developers. The price for this edition is *substantially* lower than the price for LPS Enterprise Edition. This new edition will be announced in around two weeks.

In the meantime, feel free to contact me directly with questions/concerns.

David Temkin
CTO, Laszlo Systems
temkin@laszlosystems.com

[Flu]

David, can you give us a rough, non-commital estimate of what we are talking about here? Is it a few thousands, hudreds or dozens?

[dcornish]

SO - here is the issue. I have an application written in Cold Fusion. I sell it as a hosted app. Anything more than a thousand bucks will be too expensive. I know you have to make money, but a license of Coldfusion is around $1000 with no limits on users, just one server. If you pick a different model, then this will not work for me.

[david]

Based on both of the above issues, I expect our new offering for small business deployment will suit your particular needs. This is coming very soon and will be available directly from our website. I'm not trying to be evasive -- just trying to abide by our existing announcement schedule.

More to come in the next few weeks.

- David.

[llin]

Hello,
Just found Laszlo and would like to tell you...., haven’t seen a quality of product like yours in long time (Product, documentation, web site, everything), just Outstanding!!. I found you because I couldn’t find Flex available yet... You have the momentum, but you don't have too much time. If you don't come up with an aggressive price plan soon, I'm afraid Laszlo won't last longer. We...developers, will move on. You need to hit homerun soon otherwise you'll lose the game, and you don't have many options nor weeks.
Hope you come up with a competitive price plan, soon.
Llin

[Flu]

David, any news in this subject?
Where are the mentioned price plans?


<mx:Application xmlns:mx="http://www.macromedia.com/2003/mxml">
<mx:Label text="We won't wait forever"/>
</mx:Application>

[david]

Cute. :-)

It's on the way, as scheduled -- see above, where I wrote that we'd annouce "in a few weeks." So... not much longer. And it won't be hard to find on our site.

- David.

[antun]

Here's the summary for the Express Edition (XE), which was announced today:

http://www.laszlosystems.com/products/prodoverview/lps-xe.php

You can also read up about the Non-Commercial (NC) Edition there too.

-Antun

[petit]

Hi!

Basing UI construction and event handling on open source is certainly a good idéa.
It's been there for a while now - think (X)HTML,DHML and add forms, images and animation. They are all very fine thin clients that may be generated by an application server.

Making the clients a bit thicker allow us to move some non critical processing on the client side.
If we want the client to be up to date, we either install the client and make updates over the web, or we deliver the whole client for every client session.
To make the latter apprach feasable, we have deliver only the presentation layer and some simple processing capability. This means we have to relay on some host application that is available on the client computer. For HTML/DHTML this is the browser and the processing might be made by JavaScript code.
This is inexpensive and error prone ( due to shaky implementation of JS in the browsers ).

The Flex/Laszlo solution is to compile standardized XML documents to SWF at first request and rely on the Macromeda Flash player on the client side.

Both are good solutions and to make them great, we have to get servers affordable. Both are web applications deployed in a Servlet Container and they merely handles the compilation of the presentation layer and GUI event handling.

We still need the http communication layer, a business rules layer and a data layer on the server side.

Someone earlier suggested that the price tag for Laszlo would be some $22k and a suggestion I've seen for Flex would be around $12k.

At this price level none of them will succeed, despite the fact that they are smashing incarnations of good thinking - thanks for that!

Keep it up! ( !the_price_though :-)
/Bertil

[antun]

Someone earlier suggested that the price tag for Laszlo would be some $22k and a suggestion I've seen for Flex would be around $12k.


You should check out the link I posted earlier. The pricing for the Express Edition is there.

-Antun

[petit]

Hi Antun!

Thanx! I know - thought I just had to make some comments on competition :-).

It ain't fair, I'm sure. A forum like this should talk about its target project.

Comparisons are inevitable though, and so far it seems that Laszlo has an advantage in the diversity of editions - for the Flex solution there is no public price policy. Also, as have been mentioned earlier, Lazlo is already deployed, while Flex is in beta.

While I haven't worked with Lazlo yet, it seems Flex has an advantage in its authoring tool, an enhanced DreamWeaver.

Keep up the good work on Lazlo - the functionality and the L&F of its GUI's are impressive.

All teh best!
/Bertil

[whisperstorm]

I've been working with Dreamweaver for years - even helped beta test it. There's nothing to prevent Dreamweaver from working quite nicely with Laszlo... Dreamweaver is open to learning lots of new languages through its extensibility, Laszlo could be just another language.

[petit]

Thanx WS!
A good thing to know.
I haven't worked with DreamWeaver very much.
/Bertil

[Antony]

Hi Flu,

We’ve just made the following announcements on pricing and enhancements to the Laszlo product line:

[1] LPS DE, the free developer download, now serves up to 5 remote IP connections per hour, easing collaboration among teams distributed over the Internet

[2] LPS XE (Express Edition) is available for $1,999 and offers an entry point for deploying high quality rich Internet applications for small businesses. Limited to single-processor deployment, Express Edition is ideal for Web sites that do not require fail-over protection.

[3] LPS NC (Non-Commercial), is free, subject to approval of an application. NC is designed for those organizations that would like to build and deploy applications for non-commercial educational and research purposes as well as for non-profit organizations that provide information for public benefit. In addition, this offering is ideal for Laszlo developers and business partners to showcase and promote Laszlo-based applications.

Antony Campitelli
VP, Marketing Laszlo Systems
acampitelli@laszlosystems.com

[petit]

Hello!
I think this is a very good pricing policy - thanks!
/Bertil

[mdavis]

Originally posted by Flu

<mx:Application xmlns:mx="http://www.macromedia.com/2003/mxml">
<mx:Label text="We won't wait forever"/>
</mx:Application>

I see your problem... try this:


<canvas>
<text>We won't wait forever</text>
</canvas>


:D

[llin]

Flex is an enterprise server product. Pricing starts at $12,000 for a dual-CPU license. Special pricing is available for ISVs and discounts are available to government and educational organizations in certain regions

[petit]

Right!

Flex is in the shadow of its price tag so far.

The target customer base for it is regarded small
by developers.
/Bertil

[ryancameron]

Why wouldn't you just hire a decent flash developer instead of buying this product? That way, you own the code and have unlimited "flex"iblity and wont suffer the long term consequences of being "laszy" by having code that is developed specifically to your needs with internal support and maintainance, plus you can sell the code to any of your customers without having to ding them with a proprietary system like these.

And one other thing, just because something is programmed in XML does not mean it is not proprietary. XML is <,>,/,",=. yes, thats it. Beyond that you can use any tagnames you want and structure them any way you want. And, relying on a high level kernel like XML just makes for slower and less efficient code, as compared to, say pcode / swf, or even better assembler. To the extent you "simplify" something on the surface is the extent to which it becomes less efficient "under the hood".

Comments?

[whisperstorm]

The argument is moot. Laszlo is now not only fully free, fully open source, there's also a soon to be released version that allows you to create applications that dont need the lps server at all to be deployed.


It's now as free as say Firefox, or PHP, or Apache.
So, it seems kinda a no-brainer now. Pay $$$$ for a commercial product that will only ever be flash, or invest in a free product that will never go away or ask you to update your registration....

[antun]

Hi ryancameron

This discussion thread dates back to when the LPS was a commercial software product, and therefore had a price tag.

Since October 2004, the LPS has been released under an open source license.

As to why you would use Laszlo over Flash, Flash is primarily an animation tool that lends itself very well to writing simple games, animations and the like. Building applications in Flash is tricky (it's hard to divide work between various developers) and maintaining Flash applications is impractical.

-Antun

... instead of buying this product?

[ryancameron]

Thanks for the update, I feel a bit dumb not looking at the dates of posts before posting. Given that, its quite surprising to receive a reply so quickly.

Actionscript is an object oriented programming language that is quite powerful. I should know, I make a living from working with flash every day and I do not do animations. Pretty much exclusively flash remoting/content and database management/admin tools.
I think Laszlo is a testament to the power of flash and its XML support.


Cheers,
Ryan.

[jsundman]

The Laszlo platform, nee Laszlo Presentation Server and soon to be renamed OpenLaszlo, is free.

http://www.openlaszlo.org/

Laszlo Systems, Inc, charges money for



Laszlo Mail (other applications are under development)
Consulting & custom development
Support


But Laszlo, the technology, is free, and has been since Octber 2004.

Please help us spread the word.